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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Hi All Thought I should write quick note about a nagging LPG starvation problem (now resolved) that went on for a few months! Problem: Occasional auto change to petrol, with beeps etc when LPG tank not anywhere near empty Solution 1 Go to authorised dealer - plug in to software check and fine tune - No issue found Solution 2 - LPG man suggested sometimes coolant temp sensor goes intermittent - change sensor - no improvememnt This turned out also to be a wrong diagnosis as once the LPG receives the 50C temp from the coolant sensor it does not check again till next engine restart Solution 3 - Change LPG pressure and temp sensor in LPG injector rail - no improvement Solution 4 - LPG man said sometimes tank solenoid intermittent - can disbale by removing coil, turn off manual valve, remove valve cover (small gas escape) remove solenoid "slug", replace cover, turn back on This at first seemed to fix - no problem for a month or so until heading SYD > ADL for Xmas problem reappeared under cruise control on hills Turned of valve and removed soenoid etc, again left slug out - OK for next tank then again same problem By now I was suspicious of the Excess Flow Limit valve in the tank, so arranged for a new one in advance for Adelaide (We arrived ther Xmas eve lunchtime) and was able to pick one up and have an empty LPG tank (Lucky to have brother in LPG components business) It seems that the small gas escape when removing solenoid slug cover allows the Xs Flow valve to reset completely, thus delaying onset of next trigger of the old oversensitve unit. Changed the valve in ADL Drove back SYD and around SYD since then (7 or 8) tanks without further problems Terry
Edited by Telpat16 18/2/2013 16:34
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | well done...which LPG system do you have? |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | The factory approved Sequent 56/Impco with Manchester tank BTW - sorry about the typos - how do I get back into my post to edit on this forum? |
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Just use the edit button mate. |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD |  |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | If you ever get stuck remeber that i have a licensed installers software kit.
Cable, dongle,software etc...you can get in and test all the injectors, set pressures etc.
i don't run LPG anymore cause I've been distracted, but will come back to it.
also have 2 full Impco systems on the shelf from wrecks.
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Thanks for that - I will remember! Where are you? Last time I took it to "NewGas" at Caringbah, about 20 minutes from me. Boss there Brian Newton hooked it up and went through all the settings etc, and charged me $100 |
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. |
yeah...100 bucks here and there soon adds up...I paid 500 for the tuners kit...best thing I ever did.
I am in Victoria...long way from redfern... |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | I should have also mentioned that Solution "0" was the obvious - change the filter - which clearly didn't work as I progressed through the other possibilities |
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Location: NSW | Good morning all.
Not sure if this is the right place, or whether I should start a new thread (Admin please advise...happy to edit if necessary!)...
Bought myself a used dual fuel 380 LX just over 2 months ago (a rare combo indeed!), and on the night I drove it home (from Canberra back to Sydney), the Check Engine light came on, then the engine responded intermittently to throttle input, before stalling in the M5 East tunnel, and would not restart until the 3rd attempt...scary that!
Despite a new battery and terminals (same CCA as the standard car...I insisted on one with a higher CCA, but the NRMA guy refused), the problem persisted...
Took it to a LPG specialist, who could not reproduce the fault in two days of driving after cleaning the electrical contacts for the LPG computer. Drove fine with no issues for a few weeks after that, so changed it to NSW rego and paid CTP etc., thinking that was the end of it...
Then the Check Engine light issue came back...the light would turn on and off by itself every half a tank or so...then at the last fill, the pump (the same one that I have used before) did not auto-stop correctly, leading to overfilling...
By now I am more aware of my rights, and gave the dealer the option to repair, replace, or refund. Not surprisingly, the dealer took the repair option, arranging repairs with the same LPG specialist I previously visited. I am dropping the car off to him this morning. But my warning bells are now ringing, because the LPG specialist was earlier talking about the weak link in the Impco Sequent 56 system being the injectors. But when I called him last time, he no longer mentioned anything about this, but was trying to tell me that the Check Engine light was nothing to be afraid of...that (apparently) most taxis run with the Check Engine light on all the time (not that I have noticed)!
So...my dear friends, here are my questions:
A) Is it OK/normal for a dual fuel 380 with the factory Impco Sequent 56 system to randomly throw Check Engine light warning, when there are no issues with the car at all?
B) When driving down an incline, and using Sports Mode to keep the car in 4th gear + no accelerator + only braking to keep the car at an indicated speed of 60-62km/h, does your dual fuel 380's engine's revs fluctuate between 1,100rpm and 1,500rpm when running on LPG (vs steady revs at around 1,450rpm when running on petrol)?
Grateful if you can share your insight and/or experience.
Kind regards,
Jeff |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Jeff,
the sequent 56 is a very stable kit.
I have the test gear kit here.
A 380 does NOT have check engine lights with this kit unless something is wrong.
The car does NOT run with the check light on all the time.
The oxygen sensors are rooted, they need to replace both upstream units.
When driving down an incline no 380 I own does what you describe, we have 3 on LPG.
Tell them you want it fixed perfectly.
talk to paul Nolan at Impco technologies in Melbourne, he will either diagnose it or direct you to someone competent.
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Hi Jeff
Thanks also for copying this to me as a PM
The 1100/1500 rpm issue seems to me like the toque converter lockup clutch engaging/disengaging m- but as per John not something I am seeing in mine. You may just be fluking the speed/revs at which it custs in or out
I am also having random CEL's over last few months - my OBD scanner reads faults as Lean idle bank 2 or some times a double fault as lean idle both banks then I use it to clear the fault, CEL off
At 90K service dealer said known problem and replaced petrol injector O-rings seals but no improvement
Back to Brian at New Gas to check and tweak the settings (as well as do my annual rego inspection, which dealer can't do because he has no LPG qual mechanic)
I did replace front oxy sensor a few moths ago when it faulted, so may need to do back one also
John
Would that be your next suggestion?
No obvious issue, but no fix to problem either - about twice a week
In relation to overfill it is possible to trick the fill limiter by trickling fuel very slowly - which may have happened if your pump was having a low pressure day
That is part of the valves set up in the rear tank and easy to change - I did mine myself to fix excess flow valve problem as reported at strata of thread - all part of same
Terry |
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Location: NSW | Thank you Admin and Terry for your prompt response and suggestions.
The CEL was on when the car arrived at Brian's place (has been on since the tank was about 75% full...until it is 25% now). He immediately plugged it into the diagnostics thing, and it returned P2099: Post catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich (Bank 2). Brian says it apparently is a very common issue.
Would replacing the O2 sensor(s) fix it? The car has done just over 147,000km...
[Sorry I am very new to this whole LPG thing!]
Kind regards,
Jeff |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | The 380 oxygen sensors don't last, my son had exactly the same fault in his LPG Vrx.
I had to argue with the dealer, they said same thing, CEL will always come up.
No I said...I have a MUT3, you are wrong, the sensors are faulty.
Bosch website says they have a life of 100k...less if superheated with LPG.
The sensors have to be perfect for LPG to work.
Change the two upper oxygen sensors...or change all 4 if necessary.
I did mine by substitution at home...I knew it would fix it before taking to dealer.
IF...they have the impco test kit like I have they will see the oxygen sensor waveform on the laptop.
It is so obvious when the good sensor show a clean waveform and the fautly shows a jagged one.
I am very confident that it is one or more sensors.
The overfilling can be as simple as the software calibration of the intank sensor gauge.
Do they have the Sequent software kit and dongle? It costs 500 bucks...most of them don't.
Without it you are simply guessing the fault. |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | New Gas (Brian) has all the kit incl dongle etc. fill limiter is mechanical bit like a toilet cistern. I had mine out to tweak float so I can get 55 l not original 47 Gross tank is 65 so 55 closer to 85% limit |
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Location: NSW | A big thank you to both of you for continuing to persist with me in this...
Just talked to Brian...he says he has the kit, and said the O2 sensors are "working", if a little "slow"...and that they are "probably" due for replacement.
I asked him how much for those, and he says off the top of his head, about $180 each. He asked for the dealer's number so he can talk to the dealer directly...
He also mentioned something about the "automatic fuel limiter", but the (supplying?) company has gone bust. In any case, he is chasing it up...
Admin: so the fault no longer pops up in your son's VR-X as soon as all four O2 sensors are replaced? It would be nice if the dealer would foot the bill for all 4 (as they should as per warranty), but I guess we will see...
Kind regards,
Jeff |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | I replaced front sensor in March this year. They now only supply rear sensor, p/n MN 1588A039 identical except slightly longer cable Dealer price is about $110 - much cheaper than I could get Bosch or Repco, which were more than double if I recall correctly I suspect I now need to replace rear one also to cure my intermittent CELs |
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | car uses much less fuel with new sensors
usually if the front one is faulty the other is not far behind.
replace as a pair I reckon....
Jeff...if your car is under warranty then YES it is a warranty item.
As for any LPG parts...contact paul Nolan at Impco in Melbourne...they did one for me just afew months ago (see GTL going to QLD thread)
I cannot praise this kit enough, it delivers superb economy and performance.
oh yes..."slow" oxygen sensors in a 380 are FAULTY oxygen sensors! |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | I think you are right - is rear one easy to access or lots of stripping? Attached is recorded sensor volts using dash command app and replaying in Scan XL on pc - new one blue, rear pink - seems to cycle at about 1/5 of front one - off to dealer I think!
 (380_Oxy sensor.jpg)
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 380_Oxy sensor.jpg (111KB - 540 downloads)
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Terry...that is the exact waveform of a faulty sensor.
You can get to the rear one dead easy...on a hoist...maybe ramps....but an oxygen sensor tool is absolutely necessary...about 20 bucks at supacheap auto.
And...unplugging the plug behind the throttle body can be a pain in the butt...
But not worth what they charge to do it.
Do NOT strip the thread...take your time and be sure to ditch the old one after cutting the connector off with as long a wire as possible... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Hear hear. I have the slotted socket from changing front one Ordered today. $118.15 Had a look. Think I can do from top with inlet trunk removed from airbox to TB T
Edited by Telpat16 20/8/2013 23:08
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | You said Administrator - 20/8/2013 18:53 ....take your time and be sure to ditch the old one after cutting the connector off with as long a wire as possible... Do you have a use for the old connectors and wire? T
Edited by Telpat16 21/8/2013 17:38
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Done and dusted in about 30 minutes - no problem
Will post new waveform later after I record some more data on a test run
 (380_rear oxy.jpg)
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | ...... and the new wave form is very crisp indeed
And now for a few days use to see if the pesky CEL is banished.....
 (380_New_Oxy sensor.jpg)
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380_New_Oxy sensor.jpg (101KB - 461 downloads)
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Telpat16 - 21/8/2013 17:36
You said Administrator - 20/8/2013 18:53 ....take your time and be sure to ditch the old one after cutting the connector off with as long a wire as possible... Do you have a use for the old connectors and wire? T
You can use them to make extensions when fitting extractors.
well done on the 30 minutes....am impressed.
thanks also for posting the waveform...it makes it conclusive.
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Thanks
I let it cool for a couple of hours - time for coffee, paper etc before I got started
Not sure I have completely solved - post cat sensor on bank 2 looks a bit lazy also - not sure if a problem or just that the cat is working properly
A few days of driving around will let me know
But definitely NOT an LPG specific problem - I got as CEL yesterday on petrol while I was out of LPG and looking for a servo |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Telpat16 - 22/8/2013 17:32
Thanks
I let it cool for a couple of hours - time for coffee, paper etc before I got started
Not sure I have completely solved - post cat sensor on bank 2 looks a bit lazy also - not sure if a problem or just that the cat is working properly
A few days of driving around will let me know
But definitely NOT an LPG specific problem - I got as CEL yesterday on petrol while I was out of LPG and looking for a servo
The CEL's take a long time to come up if it is marginal Terry, running petrol didn't conclusively prove it in my opinion. |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | I had been getting 2 or 3 a day sometimes
Will post a progress report after a week of no CEL - I hope, or change Bank 2 Sensor 2, but a lot harder for me to get to without a pit or hoist or ramps! |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | BTW John
Do u have a typical waveform of how the post cat O2 sensors behave
a with good cats
b with bad cats
assuming the primary sensors are working properly? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Did some more research with the data logs I have and set up new graph of pre and post cat sensor waveforms Blue = Front Primary sensor Orange = rear primary sensor Red = front post cat sensor Green = rear post cat sensor Green seems to be flat lining at about 0.2 V EDIT Can see some senor activity early in log prior to coolant reaching 80 C - then flatline Maybe a logging problem or a dead sensor ?? New graph throws some doubt on first wave form I posted - was probably front bank post cat sensor, not rear bank primary Maybe your extension lead theory will let me re-use old rear primary as rear post cat?? Thoughts ??
Edited by Telpat16 23/8/2013 09:39
 (380_Oxy sensor_all.jpg)
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Another CEL today - back to the drawing board
John
Have sent you an email with more info
Happy for u to post it if u think of value
Terry |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | The green one doesn't look right Terry....swap it with the corresponding one on the other bank and see if the fault moves?
I would just change all 4 at once and have some spares....
diagnosis by substitution looks like the way...
but are all the connectors clicked in properly? |
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Have done a bit more testing, reading and separating out graphs form front and back banks
http://www.picoauto.com/tutorials/cat-efficiency.html
provides a nice insight into what we should see pre and post cat converter
The graph below, compressed to view a lot more cycles shows speed, revs and temp at top
Then Rear bank pre and post cat, then front bank pre and post cat
As implied by the article linked above the cat smooths out the mixture variations by burring any remaining fuel
As can be seen by looking at middle graph post cat sensor activity seems to be associated with speed and rev variations - the exact time we would expect acceleration enrichment etc, so at worse is indicative of a partial fall off in cat efficiency, but have not had any P042? cat related DTCs
Bottom graph for front bank is a different story
At far left the post cat sensors seem to mirror behaviour of rear bank post cat then dies and sits at 0.18 volt without a murmur after engine temp went past 80 C
So back to dealer for a new post cat sensor - sadly pre and post have different shape connectors with electrical males and females swapped as well, so I cant easily recycle pre sensor without cutting and shutting the wires
 (380_Sensor Graph.jpg)
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Administrator - 23/8/2013 22:03 The green one doesn't look right Terry....swap it with the corresponding one on the other bank and see if the fault moves? I would just change all 4 at once and have some spares.... diagnosis by substitution looks like the way... but are all the connectors clicked in properly? Connectors appear OK but I also cleaned them with contact cleaner, including disconnecting front post cat to generate a bank 2 fault - proves which bank my scanner assigns as 1 & 2 But also got a front primary sensor Circuit fault code so may have a funny connection on that one somewhere I will email the screen capture of the graph to you - lot easier to read than the print & scan I copied |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Found a way to post the screen capture - much clearer than the no background graph in prior post
 (380_Sensor Screen.jpg)
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380_Sensor Screen.jpg (436KB - 474 downloads)
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | the red and light blue square wave patterns are what they should all look like.
the light green one is a dead flat line....looks like a faulty sensor to me....if it was a blocked cat it would be running like crap....but to prove it take the cat off and shake it...i did have one that fell apart on the bench,...
all gaskets are reusable and takes about an hour to pull off...
if the cats are stuffed thenwack some rpw extractors on and an aftermarket cat at the rear....may as well... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Extractors a nice thought, but have read elsewhere the cause CEL's too??
Any all turned to doodoo today on freeway - misfiring, flashing CEL.
Had the iPad so captured some log files for the dealer
Front bank primary (red graph) failed low and the post cat is quite dead as u noticed
Interestingly just before home I disconnected front primary so as to generate a missing sensor fault to confirm than on my app bank 2 is the front bank and the misfiring stopped
Disconnected log file graph shows the ECU 'sees' 1 volt hand is happy to run there - presumably open loop off the embedded maps - I will store that little gem of info if ever get misfire again!!
The failed primary sensor was new in March, so will be interesting to see how the dealer responds to a request for a free replacement.
 (misfire_log.jpg)
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misfire_log.jpg (407KB - 460 downloads)
misfire log2.jpg (393KB - 454 downloads)
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Terry, if you have the cash, fir the extractors and a custom exhaust with rear cat.
You'll get CEL's but we have a fix for that as well.
Foozrcool has the mod for that.
CEL's are no big deal if the car runs properly. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | do you mean his foam blockout of the led? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Got lucky at the wreckers - pair of 70K exhaust headers / cats with 4 O2 sensors for $400
Now have a enough sensors to test by substitution
Dealer agreed to refund fault 6 month old sensor
Have had one "marginal cat CEL" after changing post cat bank 2 faulty (flatlining) sensor
Bur still getting Lean idle bank 1 bank 2 CELs - maybe twice a day with a bit of around town running, and usually during slow down at throttle off
Injector seals have been changed
Are there any other known inlet manifold air leak locations ?
Will post some "normal" pre and post cat waveforms later after I extract from other computer - including a test in daughter's new 2013 Outlander which is still less than 8000 km |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | the gasket for intake to plenum can leak at the rear cyliders, also be really careful to torque the bolts correctly...they strip so easily too.
there are two 12mm nuts for the plenum support, do them up last I found is best.
if you change all the precats with o2 sensors that would be elimination of that me thinks.
is your LPG line filter blocked?
You're not using a KN filter are you?
try another MAF sensor? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Below some interesting waveforms:
Outlander is daughters new 7700k car - only one bank as has 4 cyl engine
I am somewhat surprised how much time the post cat sensor spends in the rich zone, but no CELs. This snapshot towards the end of a 45 min drive around Sydney, mostly not fast, so cat performance may improve when really hot under freeway etc conditions
Second pic is 380 after a long run on the freeway at 80 and then 100 kmh. This run produced the poor cat efficiency pending DTC for bank 2
Subsequent reading suggests modern ECU's rate cats by relative switch frequency between pre and post cat O2 sensors. Bank 2 has almost same switch freq, now that I have installed a working O2 sensor post cat.
I have the second hand cat to install when this one annoys me with CEL's - after I figure the lean idle problem!
"Frame 727" is the exact instant, about 10 mins after morning cold start in city traffic in 40 kmh streets, that I got both banks lean idle CELs,.
I can't see anything obvious other than it was after a short throttle off deceleration
I guess I need check all the vacuum etc connections to the inlet manifold
 (Outlander.jpg)
 (Freeway suspect Cat.jpg)
 (Frame727_CEL On.jpg)
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Outlander.jpg (407KB - 454 downloads)
Freeway suspect Cat.jpg (402KB - 506 downloads)
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Administrator - 4/9/2013 18:36 the gasket for intake to plenum can leak at the rear cyliders, also be really careful to torque the bolts correctly...they strip so easily too. there are two 12mm nuts for the plenum support, do them up last I found is best. if you change all the precats with o2 sensors that would be elimination of that me thinks. is your LPG line filter blocked? You're not using a KN filter are you? try another MAF sensor? Inlet manifold was done by dealer at last service when injector O-rings replaced, so I assume correct torque etc I replaced LPG filter at the beginning of the starvation issue that triggered this thread originally, and have no problem with lean except at idle MAF sensor has been cleaned regularly with commercial MAF cleaning solvent I DO HAVE KN filter - but why would this cause lean idle? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Re Jigged graph to show MAF, not MAP - sensor appears quite sensitive - yellow line in top graph
 (MAF Output.jpg)
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MAF Output.jpg (410KB - 508 downloads)
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | that rear bank post cat look wrong? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Administrator - 4/9/2013 19:08 that rear bank post cat look wrong? I think it shows sensor working OK, but cat performance a bit suspect. So far not bad enough to trigger a pending DTC for bank1
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | could be intermittent wiring issue...
have you tried logging at idle and wiggling plugs in real time? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | No. What about KN filter comment? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | It stuffs up MAF sensors and destroys superchargers as it doesn't filter fine stuff. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Tks
Just picked up a paper filter. Will do am tomorrow and again clean MAF sensor |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | No Joy
Paper filter in, cleaned MAF sensor new Lean Idle DTC both banks short time later
Is the vapour purge circuit a possible candidate for air leaks into manifold? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | yep...but just disconnect it. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | swap the two manifolds/cats/os sensors complete now.
its about an hour for me to do both... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: NEWPORT QLD | Administrator - 6/9/2013 21:58 yep...but just disconnect it. Electrically? or mechanically and plug pipe? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Administrator - 6/9/2013 21:58 swap the two manifolds/cats/os sensors complete now. its about an hour for me to do both... Bit longer for me as no hoist, have to do back manifold from underneath on engine stands. And I guess bite the bullet and buy a torque wrench in view of your easy to strip comments earlier So maybe a try of front manifold and rear post cat sensor as that is the only sensor I haven't changed and it behaviour (or the behaviour of the cat) is a bit peculiar |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | all you need is 12mm,14mm and 15mm sockets to remove manifolds, as well as some red silicone grease for the exhaust flanges.
Dont need a torque wrench for the manifolds, just be careful
the exhaust manifold gaskets are stainless steel and fully reusable. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Stage One Complete
Why the red silicone? Mine had a stainless steel gasket in the flange joint?
A couple of sore knuckles but front cat swapped. The nut behind the alternator is a bit of a challenge!
Sadly post cat sensor on front bank is reporting faulty heater and sitting at 0.44 V, so will change that tomorrow when all cold again - at least I now have two to choose from!
Different sensor post cat 1 (firewall) shows same pattern as before, so that cat getting tired.
 (380 newcat f.jpg)
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Frequent flyer Gold
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Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | take the dipstick out to get that nut out easier....dipstick just pulls out... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Fixed the front post cat with my last spare, then after about 30 km the rear post cat started flat lining at 0V.
I'll get there one day
 (380_faulty_S12 .jpg)
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | unbelievably bad luck mate... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Tks
But getting much faster at swapping them! |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Telpat16 - 8/9/2013 20:53
Tks
But getting much faster at swapping them!
I can swap a supercharger out in 45 minutes now....LOL |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Administrator - 20/8/2013 12:03
Jeff...if your car is under warranty then YES it is a warranty item.
As for any LPG parts...contact paul Nolan at Impco in Melbourne...they did one for me just afew months ago (see GTL going to QLD thread)
I cannot praise this kit enough, it delivers superb economy and performance.
oh yes..."slow" oxygen sensors in a 380 are FAULTY oxygen sensors!
Thank you John and Terry especially, for your help and advice so far.
Before I picked the car back up from the LPG specialist, I insisted that the O2 sensors should be replaced. But he basically said he spent some time talking to the people at Impco, and loaded a new tuning program that "heats up the cat faster", and also replaced the automatic fuel limiter to cure the overfilling issue. He reiterated that it is a great car with only minor issues that are now fixed. Charged me $50 for LPG again (apparently the dealer has covered all other costs), and off I went...
Not long after, I noticed the idling revs when in-gear would vary greater than before. The variation would start after the engine has been idling for about 20 seconds or so (e.g. at a red light). On one particular trip, the idling in-gear revs went up halfway through the trip from the usual steady 650rpm or so, to about 850rpm, and stayed there until the end of the trip when I stopped the engine. While I was slightly concerned, I perceived this as the result of the car adjusting to the new tuning program. As this is a Friday to Sunday car (I take public transport otherwise), it made it through the first weekend.
However, when driving the car last Friday night, I noticed the idling in-gear had become more "lumpy" and erratic, and would begin as soon as the car has stopped. Revs would drop (to just over 500rpm) and rising (to about 800rpm) more frequently at random intervals, with the engine shuddering and jerking. Then, the Check Engine light came back on and stayed on while the car was moving. And whenever I try to accelerate, the engine would refuse to rev for a few seconds, then the revs would flare up resulting in a burst of acceleration, and the Check Engine light would flash as soon as that happens. Unlike previously, I now have video evidence of the issues. Here they are (please turn up the volume on your computer while viewing):
First video
Second video
Third video (probably the best out of the three)
[I also have slightly downsized versions of the above videos, but it is harder to make out the "jumping" tacho, and my commentary from those.]
I have not touched the car since.
The car, a 2005 model with less than 145,000 km, was purchased early in June. The contract includes a warranty that (I quote)...
NOTE: The selling dealer must be given first opportunity to arrange warranty repairs
* 3 months or 5,000 kilometres after sales (whichever first occurs) for a motor vehicle that has been driven for not more than 160,000 km and was manufactured not more than 10 years before the date of sale. No warranty if the vehicle exceeds either of these requirements.(end quote)
And then in smaller font (again I quote)...
Our goods come with guarantees that cannot be excluded under the Australian Consumer Law. You are entitled to a replacement or refund for a major failure and compensation for any other reasonably foreseeable loss or damage. You are also entitled to have the goods repaired or replaced if the goods fail to be of acceptable quality and the failure does not amount to a major failure. (end quote)
I have continued in my email communications with the dealer. This time, I have asked for a full refund based on the fact that I have already given him an opportunity to repair the vehicle, and I have already stated that I reserve all legal right to request a full refund if the problem is not fixed. Also, based on the fact that I have lost all confidence on the vehicle, as stalling in a motorway tunnel around a blind corner at night on the first night I got it (I was unaware of the Australian Consumer Law bit at the time) has to be perceived by any reasonable person as a major failure, and now after the supposed repair of the minor issue(s), different symptoms have now popped up, one of which presents itself as a new danger to both my surrounding motorists as well as myself (for a car that does not accelerate when I ask it to, which means someone can rear-end me...and then the subsequent burst of acceleration means I can rear-end someone else), not to mention the rough idling that seems as if the car is running on four out of six cylinders...totally not in keeping with any 380!
In response, the dealer simply asked me when I can bring the car (back to the ACT) for him to look at its current condition... Questions: A) I note that The selling dealer must be given first opportunity to arrange warranty repairs. Does this mean that I can now take the car to say, Terry, so we can check out the waveforms and put them up here (it will be a great help Terry!)?
B) Terry: does that also mean that I can/should take the car to your recommended Mitsubishi dealer to scan the fault codes? C) Is it true that prolonged running in this state would have already damaged the car mechanically, so it is definitely not a good idea to keep owning (sorry but I am running a very tight budget at the moment, and the car that I keep, I need to drive into the ground over many, many years!)? D) Is it possible for me to continue this in a PM addressed to BOTH of you? Sorry I seem to only be able to PM one person at a time... Grateful for your assistance! Kind regards, Jeff
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | He is lying if he says that he has adjusted the cat pre-heat parameters....absolute bullshit.
grab a 10mm ring spanner..
Disconnect the battery negative terminal for 5 minutes.
While waiting... switch the car to petrol only.
Reconnect the battery.
Run it for a tankful.....did the car run ok? did a check engine light come up?
If all is okay it's an LPG issue.
If car got a check light or ran like crap it is a mitsubishi dealer issue.
Simple as that. |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Administrator - 9/9/2013 22:17
He is lying if he says that he has adjusted the cat pre-heat parameters....absolute bullshit.
grab a 10mm ring spanner..
Disconnect the battery negative terminal for 5 minutes.
While waiting... switch the car to petrol only.
Reconnect the battery.
Run it for a tankful.....did the car run ok? did a check engine light come up?
If all is okay it's an LPG issue.
If car got a check light or ran like crap it is a mitsubishi dealer issue.
Simple as that.
Not sure what he meant exactly. Something about the post cat/O2 sensor was/is a bit lazy or something...so loaded a new tuning program to make sure it heats up faster or something...sorry I am no expert on these things!
Don't have a ring spanner, but I will run it on just petrol tomorrow night, and let you know of the outcome.
By the way: does this forum allow me to PM both you and Terry? Or can I only PM one person at a time? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Hi You have my email address and U know John's form joining forum so can PM via ordinary email
Flashing CEL is misfiring - mine did that with faulty precat sensor - can be resolved temporarily by unplugging fron precat sensor which will force car into safe slightly rich mode - use more fuel but achieve reasonable driveability
A cheap set of 8 to 17 ring / open end spanners would be a wise investment!
Agree with John - run on petrol and see what happens
Edited by Telpat16 10/9/2013 07:55
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Another thought => make sure aircon is "OFF" when assessing idle stability I assume yours is auto - u should expect some rev changes at around 60 kmh with minor load/ throttle/misfire issues as the torque converter lockup with lock/unlock around there causing a 300 or 400 rpm change - eg with cruise control on at 60 kmh a slight rise in road may be seen as an unexpected change in revs from about 1000 to about 1300 or so even though car stays in 5th
Edited by Telpat16 10/9/2013 08:27
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you Terry. I will see if I have time left to email the two of you.
Without disconnecting and reconnecting the battery, I will run it purely on petrol tonight, and then back to LPG again, and see what happens.
Will try to reassess idle revs tonight, with the air con off.
I have had numerous opportunities to drive my Mum's 2005 Mazda 6 since new. Its 5 speed auto can lockup/unlock torque converter from as little as 40km/h in 3rd gear, depending on how much accelerator is applied, and my 380's lockup/unlock felt and behaved similarly. But what I experienced last Friday, is that the revs would stop rising about halfway through reaching the required accelerator angle, and then a few unpredictable seconds later, the revs would catch up and rush up immediately, resulting in a surge of acceleration...so unlikely to be related to the torque converter...
Is there any chance I can show you the car some time this week? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | The hesitation u describe sounds like misfiring to me - runs rough cos excessively rich and flashes CEL I am in East Redfern/ Surry Hills Where are u? |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | I live near the Ryde area, but can definitely come to you tonight if you are available then?
I will PM you, and we can work something out. Thank you! |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Terry: you have PM.
You may be right about the rich tune, because before I got the car back, the average fuel consumption (I have not resetted it since I got the car 3 months ago, but it may have resetted itself when the battery was changed, and maybe when the LPG specialist was working on it) went down to as low as 13.9L/100km (100% urban and not many prolonged motorway runs). But as soon as I got it back from the LPG specialist almost two weeks ago, it has been sitting on 14.1L/100km ever since...
Question: whilst bringing the car over to you, should I switch it to petrol only? I am worried that the gas situation might disappear if I switch it back to gas when I see you...or at the very least, take a while to redevelop...
Does running the engine rich for prolonged periods, cause any (short term or long term) damage?
Sorry I am such a noob! |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Would like to know if the problem is still there on petrol - Leave it on gas and we will interrogate codes and grab sensor behaviour before doing a battery off reset to try a few days on petrol as suggested by John Rich running not usually a big problem - just like leaving an old fashioned choke out too long - lean is an issue as burns valves and melts pistons I don't think the trip computer numbers are significantly different - will also depend on this weeks butane/propane proportions in LPG etc etc and if the LPG ECU is set differently as trip computer is from petrol ECU In the end it is tank to tank manual calculations the have real meaning |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Had a quick plug in to Jeff's car tonite
1 Sensor Graphs
It is abundantly clear that the bank one (firewall sensors) are not working correctly – a simple comparison with the front back is obvious that they are staying completely lean
2 Error codes
Reinforced by the error codes stored in his ECU and causing the CEL to remain on
The lean indications of the blue line – precat sensor in bank 1 are causing the ECU to inject excess fuel, thus resulting in over rich running on cyl 1,3,5 and the miss fires reported and felt
Bank 2 is also a little over rich, but I expect that is a overflow problem in the inlet manifold from bank 1 over compensation
Hope it helps with your dealer dealings
 (Jeff_380LX_bad sensor.jpg)
 (Jeff_fault code.jpg)
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Jeff_380LX_bad sensor.jpg (812KB - 511 downloads)
Jeff_fault code.jpg (212KB - 485 downloads)
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Deeply appreciate your help tonight, Terry! Sorry we could not say goodbye to Ann, but we hope you will find the card useful at Coles Express!
After unplugging the bad sensor, the drive home was indeed much better...almost exactly the way the car should behave. At least, the way I would imagine it to be!
Curiously, the varying revs when keeping it in fourth gear, and using the brakes to keep the speed going downhill between an indicated 60-62km/h, has returned. But perhaps this will disappear once the faulty sensors on bank one are replaced?
In any case, I am forwarding your findings to the dealer, to see what he says. Hopefully I won't have to drive 600km this weekend!
Kind regards,
Jeff |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Good morning all, especially to Terry and John! So the ACT dealer responded and advised me to get a quote, and to ask the LPG specialist for a retune afterwards. Just spoke to the service advisor that Terry recommended, and he is convinced that, instead of two faulty oxygen sensors, I may have one faulty oxygen sensor (I think he is referring to the pre-cat one on the firewall side...the blue line in the middle graph), and one catalytic converter...? (This is despite me advising him that the post-cat green line in the middle graph does respond with more throttle input, as with the pre-cat blue line but that is moving less than ideal, and the bottom graph is exactly how Terry's daughter's Outlander behaves...he is saying that, perhaps at least in the 380, the green line should not move much at all...?) [Perhaps Terry will need to Reply All to this service advisor in our emails so far, with the part of the graph where we were using petrol, and where I was pumping the accelerator pedal whilst on LPG. This may prove that the post-cat green lines ARE supposed to move up and down also, just in a lower frequency than the pre-cat sensors...?] So now to have it diagnosed by the service advisor and his team, would cost $145. I am not sure if the ACT dealer likes the sound of this, but I will have to let him know regardless. In any case, I have a feeling I will have to cop this charge myself for now, just to get the ball rolling... At least things are heading in the right direction I guess! |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | No you don't have to cop the charge.
Tell him to use a mobile mechanic service at your place? |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | I can certainly try to do that. But I wonder if a mobile mechanic will be more capable of pinpointing the exact causes of all the issues, than a Mitsubishi service centre?
I will just put it to the dealer and see what he says.
Just looked at some of your "resurrection" threads, John. I am beginning to wonder if it is better to pay YOU to fix the whole thing for me! I say this because, if the sensor in Bank 1 has in fact been faulty for some time, how long has the engine been running lean on that side (and correspondingly, rich on Bank 2)? If that is the case, then I might be better off swapping for a second hand undamaged engine instead! |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | I believe the Outlander plot a few post back is correct - veh has only 7700 km
Also have a look at
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f101/2007-exige-s-throwing-p0420-p0171-60410/
post 13
Similar post for a Lotus, with comment that if post cat sensor is cycling more than 6 times for every 10 or the precat then cat is getting tired and 10 to 10 means cat not working at all
Can't re-find the earlier article I read which said the cat absorbs oxygen during lean time of the pre cat controller to then use to burn off pollutants etc over following cycles
Seems this is a good explanation of why we see some rich lean activity post cat depending on how much we over rich during acceleration
Copying the full graph to John at dealer may convince him that ur post cat sensor is still working - as we did get some rich blips on it |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | you shouldn't need to pay for anything...that's what a warranty is for.
no need to replace the engine matey...nothing wrong with it. |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you very much Terry for sending the complete graph to John (the service advisor), and explaining how the sensors are behaving under the different conditions we have presented (running on LPG, running on petrol, and pumping the accelerator whilst running on LPG). Please send the screenshots as a separate attachment as you did before, rather than in line with the email text as I did...because he was then unable to zoom in to view in more detail...silly me! 
John (the Administrator): the car was purchased early in June, so by now it is just out of the standard 3-month warranty. But because it stalled in a motorway tunnel on day one (and again in a car park, plus a milder symptom of the delayed then surged acceleration, which means the engine may already have been running lean at the time, if not before! More about this later...), and since the first repair, it has started misfiring (still within the warranty), the dealer is obliged to fix it. But it does not stop the dealer from going for a short term fix, which is why I am requesting the work be done properly in a Mitsubishi service centre that has experience dealing with dual fuel 380s. Let's see what the dealer says this time... Regarding the engine, I am just concerned that the prolonged lean running (at least on Bank 1 based on the graphs) would have already caused enough damage that cannot be seen/detected unless the engine is pulled apart. As you've said, these oxygen sensors are not supposed to last beyond 100,000km, and the car has now done in excess of 147,000km, so it may have been running lean for almost 50,000km, if not more. Curiously, none of this was picked up by the pre-purchase inspection report I've purchased prior to purchasing the vehicle. Tried asking the inspecting company about their 30-day warranty (http://www.vehicleinspectors.com.au/Conditions/) immediately after the motorway stall and what they can do about this, and asked again recently, but no joy from them either... Hopefully the dealer will just approve a once-and-for-all fix at Terry's recommended repairer, and it will work out fine. But yes, I am still concerned about the prolonged lean running, and how much damage it may already have caused the engine. A replacement engine from eBay and/or the wreckers? Hmm...
It was SO much easier when I bought a (then) 4-year-old and supposedly unreliable Astra Turbo with 104,000km and a full exhaust from the dump pipe onwards, back in 2007, and that was with a mere NRMA inspection report. That car has now done almost 175,000km, and besides regular servicing, wear and tear and despite more mild modifications, still running great with no sign of needing a new clutch yet (indeed, the friction point is pretty much still at the same amount of clutch pedal travel, and it still clamps fine)! And now so much more trouble with this particular 380 with supposedly a far more detailed inspection report...? Quite sad and incredible, really! *sigh* Really hope the 380 is fixed properly so I can keep it, though, as it definitely has a far broader range of talents/capabilities than my more narrowly-focused modified Astra! |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Will send later today
Engine is running rich because sensor failed lean and ECU over compensates causing a rich misfire |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you Terry for your clarification that it is not running lean on one bank.
If that's the case, then it'd be ok for me to take it on gentle 50km trips daily for the next three days without inflicting damage, wouldn't it? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Absolutely With the sensor disconnected it runs in "open loop" mode and uses the fuel map built into the ECU, without trimming fuel back for better economy Your fuel use will just be a bit higher than ideal - but still less than recent reeich misfiring wher it was Over adding fuel because it thought it was lean |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you Terry! Appreciate your reassurance.
Thank God: the dealer said "OK" to the diagnosis. So hopefully I can leave the car at the service centre first thing Monday, and see what happens!
Will keep you all posted. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | I have just written the email to all, including other screen captures
It says:
Hi John and Jeff
In the forum Jeff wrote:
“Good morning all, especially to Terry and John!
So the ACT dealer responded and advised me to get a quote, and to ask the LPG specialist for a retune afterwards.
Just spoke to the service advisor that Terry recommended, and he is convinced that, instead of two faulty oxygen sensors, I may have one faulty oxygen sensor (I think he is referring to the pre-cat one on the firewall side...the blue line in the middle graph), and one catalytic converter...?
(This is despite me advising him that the post-cat green line in the middle graph does respond with more throttle input, as with the pre-cat blue line but that is moving less than ideal, and the bottom graph is exactly how Terry's daughter's Outlander behaves...he is saying that, perhaps at least in the 380, the green line should not move much at all...?)
[Perhaps Terry will need to Reply All to this service advisor in our emails so far, with the part of the graph where we were using petrol, and where I was pumping the accelerator pedal whilst on LPG. This may prove that the post-cat green lines ARE supposed to move up and down also, just in a lower frequency than the pre-cat sensors...?]
So now to have it diagnosed by the service advisor and his team, would cost $145. I am not sure if the ACT dealer likes the sound of this, but I will have to let him know regardless. In any case, I have a feeling I will have to cop this charge myself for now, just to get the ball rolling...
At least things are heading in the right direction I guess!”
I partly agree with John, in that if we look at the parts of the graph I have now attached – eg transition LPG > Petrol > LPG and excess rich due to throttle blipping we can see some life in the post cat sensor on rear bank
If I were doing the job myself, and not needing to (possibly) pay two lots of labour I would gamble and first change top sensor and redo the graphs
I believe in view of the Outlander graph the front cat is OK (for now a least – maybe getting a bit tired) , and maybe not enough info on the firewall side cat to really know until the precat sensor is working properly
In the case of the dealer doing the work and then not wanting to have two visits I would have him change both sensors – they are cheaper than the labour and then diagnose system again to see true health of cat converters
I note that none of the codes were cat fault codes (eg P0430) as was the case with my car
Regards
Terry
 (Jeff_LPG_UL_LPGs.jpg)
 (Jeff_throttle blips_s.jpg)
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Jeff_LPG_UL_LPGs.jpg (450KB - 485 downloads)
Jeff_throttle blips_s.jpg (887KB - 452 downloads)
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you Terry for sending the graphs to John (both the service advisor and the Administrator here), with corresponding advice.
John (the service advisor) said your car is also in to have one of the cats replaced by a second hand one. Is this the case? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Good to see they are doing something here...well done for perservering Dazeet.
BTW...love your car's interior, very rare indeed. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | dazeet - 16/9/2013 11:26 Thank you Terry for sending the graphs to John (both the service advisor and the Administrator here), with corresponding advice. John (the service advisor) said your car is also in to have one of the cats replaced by a second hand one. Is this the case? Yes - realised it was you arriving just after I left I changed front cat myself but not enough lifting etc equip to get to the back one Hopefully this will put and end to my random CEL's most of which are Lean Idle, but did have some Bad Cats as well |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Administrator - 16/9/2013 11:47
Good to see they are doing something here...well done for perservering Dazeet.
BTW...love your car's interior, very rare indeed.
John - that "something" is still an unknown, as I was unable to take the service advisor's call a few hours back (in fact, I have just finished my lunch!), and I can't get through after two attempts...surprised that they do not appear to have voicemail on their phones! In any case, I have written back to him asking for a written quote so hopefully the ACT dealer will foot the bill...will have to keep waiting and see!
Mind you, his team were probably busy working on Terry's car! :P
Thank you John for your encouraging words. There aren't many dual fuel 380s around in reasonable condition that are "ready to buy", especially those in the more luxurious specs. So I really hope this 380 will work out fine, especially as I have a feeling Mitsubishi (Motors Australia Limited) is in my blood. I still miss my old trusty TR Magna that my mother passed on to me, with the 2.6 Astron II that I was crazy enough (to most people) to then modify with full Whiteline suspension, 16-inch Speedy Holotype-Rs, 225/50 Dunlop SP Sport 3000As, KS Verada headlights, a reasonable amplifier/subwoofer sound system with full door sound deadening, and so on. In fact, it would probably be still be around today, had it not met its fate being rear-ended by some inattentive driver back in January 2007 (the car was still driveable afterwards, but NRMA preferred to give me a cheque, rather than to fix it)...
Telpat16 - 16/9/2013 15:55
Yes - realised it was you arriving just after I left I changed front cat myself but not enough lifting etc equip to get to the back one
Hopefully this will put and end to my random CEL's most of which are Lean Idle, but did have some Bad Cats as well
Terry - I had a look at Google Street View last night. Their images must've been out of date as I saw "Mercedes Benz" and "smart", and was wondering where "Mitsubishi" is...until I saw "Mercedes Benz" whilst heading down Elizabeth Street this morning, then turned my head hard right and just noticed in time that "Mitsubishi" had replaced "smart"...and almost missed turning right into their driveway!
Hopefully by now they have installed your second hand cat, and your GT is now running perfectly again!
But if I really do need my cat(s) replaced: would you recommended getting the ones with metal cores, rather than the ceramic cores? How much more do the metal-cored ones cost? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Just picked mine up - running OK but signs a new battery soon - original since 2007 so I can't complain
I have no experience with cats other than last week or so - John may have better ideas
But looking a manifold cat is integrated into exhaust header manifold, so I don't think can just change cat without new set up - eg extractors and aftermarket cats downstream somewhere |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | When i was running a supercharger with my LPG kit I melted one of the precats...the metal ones I could not break...and still haven't been able to on the twin turbo.
The stock cats in my opinion cannot handle LPG for too long...but replacing them is a ton of money to do properly and not get check lights.
In the end I got extractors, supercharger and of course LPG.
Here is a video of what it runs like....about 6 seconds to 100km/h from standstill....the pedal was just floored...I have a LSD to control the wheelspin...
enjoy..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsttyo_dH6w |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Administrator - 16/9/2013 18:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsttyo_dH6w
Very impressive, John!
Not sure why I was hearing some beeping noises in the video, though...?
I might get there one day...if I win the lottery! 
But back to my car. I do notice that whenever I am idling, it seems like a LOT of white smoke do occasionally flow outwards and upwards slowly from the exhaust like a cloud...whenever I am idling in-gear...I can actually see the smoke from my driver's side rear view mirror, flowing evening above the top of the bootlid! Like the exhaust is smoking 50 cigarettes at once or something (not that I smoke, but for some reason that image came up in my head!). Not sure if that is normal behaviour for a car running on LPG...?
While I definitely prefer a "set and forget" kind of solution i.e. new metal-cored cats, I have a feeling the ACT dealer is only happy to pay for just enough to get the car running fine again. Therefore, new factory ceramic-cored cats perhaps. But you say they are still too expensive? What kind of $$$ are we talking about here?
Perhaps I can only just follow Terry's footsteps for now, and just get second hand replacements. Something like these perhaps?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271070888845&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GENUINE-MITSUBISHI-380-2006-COMPLETE-EXHAUST-INC-CATALYTIC-CONVERTER-/271070888898?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f1d1583c2
My concern is that if the ceramic-cored cats have already "shattered", the bits (at least according to Wikipedia) may actually be blocking the rest of the exhaust system. I am not sure how that can be "cleared" then! Perhaps save up for a full stainless steel dual(?) exhaust system with metal-cored cats, and then a retune...? How much would that cost?
Will be interesting to hear what John (the service advisor) says tomorrow... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | I've got some lying around the garage floor...
The beeping noise is the Impco system switching to petrol cause it cant deliver enough LPG...
If you flatten your pedal you will hear it too. |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Good morning all.
John: haven't found the need to floor the pedal yet. But good to know that is how it works...
Just forwarded you the quote John (the service advisor) has provided so far. Let's just say that I have fallen off my chair...a couple of times!
I won't say too much here for the time being (John and Terry: appreciate your responses by email for now). But in any case, I will need to work out how to best word everything back to that ACT dealer. In fact, the evidence from the inspection and diagnosis suggest it may be more prudent for me to just ask for a full refund, and walk away from this particular car... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Yep...you need an exhaust manifold/cat assembly (for the front bank?)
You can get a second hand one for less than that....a tenth in fact.
In any event...any exhaust shop can do it in under an hour if it's the front bank....Terry knows it's a piece of cake too.
Not your problem...the dealer that sold you the car has to fix under warranty.
I would stick with the car mate, nothing drastically wrong with it in my opinion.
and don't sweat about the timing belt, it isn't worth what they have quoted you....or that urgent...they are just guessing...of course the writing will be faded, it spins around the water pump pulley...
I reckon 150 for a second hand cat and $50 to fit at an exhaust shop......tooo easy...a.s long as the second hand one is a good one.
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | His problem is RH ie rear bank - |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Telpat16 - 17/9/2013 18:34
His problem is RH ie rear bank -
oh well...allow another twenty minutes...LOL |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Have both cats replaced now and a did a new Century 620 CCA battery this arvo to get over the Crank Angle DTC that arrived yesterday after a hard start
Now to see if my lean idle DTC's disappear!
Looking forward to when I get down ur way for a face to face over a few beveridges
T |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Just emailed you John and Terry... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Jeffrey, here is a picture of a timing belt same as on your car.
The writing always wears off, just depends on the brand of belt as to how long the logo lasts.
50,000 k's in city driving is a lot more revolutions of the belt compared to 50000k's of country driving.
I would treat with suspiscion anyone who uses the writing as a gauge of belt age or condition.
 (timing belt.JPG)
Attachments
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timing belt.JPG (149KB - 467 downloads)
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Back to basics -- 2 more Lean idle CEL's today after new battery At least instant morning starts now Have clamped vapour purge line closed - now to see what tomorrow brings!
Edited by Telpat16 19/9/2013 19:18
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Today brought more CEL's - lean idle still the fault
Do any members have history with the development of this ECU for the Aus 380?
What is logic that leads to a lean idle CEL??
Detailed log analysis shows pending DTCs sitting and disappearing but sometimes becoming permanent with "CEL ON" the result |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Call Paul Nolan at Impco technologies in Braeside melbourne.
I wonder if your inline filter needs replacing Terry? |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Tks. Filter replaced this time last year Long term fuel trims about -14% so I think system set fairly rich No sign of going back to petrol on hard acceleration
Edited by Telpat16 21/9/2013 08:53
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Telpat16 - 21/9/2013 08:06
Tks. Filter replaced this time last year Long term fuel trims about -14% so I think system set fairly rich No sign of going back to petrol on hard acceleration
No sign of going back to petrol is an erroneous setting.
In the software you can set what rpm/injector duty cycle to switch back at.
I wonder if that is your problem?
The Impco ECU setup tool would reveal all mate. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | I will find some hills to do some full load testing
Live in inner Sydney so opportunity for full throttle a bit limited!
Has been connected to ECU setup tool a few times at "NewGas", but I recall (going back to page 1 of this thread) that no problem going back to petrol automatically under load when I had a LPG valve problem causing starvation
Edited by Telpat16 21/9/2013 16:10
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Telpat16 - 21/9/2013 11:35
I will find some hills to do some full load testing
Live in inner Sydney so opportunity for full throttle a bit limited!
Has been connected to ECU setup tool a few times at "the Gas Man", but I recall (going back to page 1 of this thread) that no problem going back to petrol automatically under load when I had a LPG valve problem causing starvation
shouldn't need hills....just floor it from takeoff and the LED on the LPG fuel gauge should turn from green to yellow to red and then back again.
about 3000-3500 rpm should do it. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Will try later
Just did a motorway and heavy traffic loop of about 60 km on petrol - no sign of pending or permanent DTC's in the scan tool log - so I guess that narrows the problem to LPG |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | It may be your changeover rpm is set too high..
The LPG system leans out and thats why we make it change to petrol.
just a thought?
When i was running supercharged LPG we had it set to 2500 rpm..as soon as boost came on the LPg system couldnt deliver....and....
remember...no fuel pump with LPG just tank pressure...so as the fuel level goes down lpg fuel line pressure goes down too. |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Tried WOT launch - no problem goes to petrol about 3.5 to 4000 - silent change - so I guess I never had my head down before when my boot was that far in
No new DTC's on that run either - wish I knew how to generate on demand to narrow the issue! |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Good afternoon John and Terry.
Just want to thank you both for your help. After supposedly having one of the catalytic converters replaced, and getting it tuned at The Gas Man and having the vapour filter and one of the injectors replaced, car is running well (it even shifts smoother!), if only slightly thirstier than before. Otherwise, very happy with everything else about it
Taking it to Cooma/Jindabyne/Thredbo this weekend, so will try to take some pictures and post on the 380 LX section afterwards!
P.S.: Terry, I read on another thread that you have self-tuned your car to running perfect now. Great to hear!
Edited by dazeet 4/3/2014 14:06
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | well done mate... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Good news |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Good afternoon all.
Seems like my LPG system is playing up again, and throwing on the CEL. CEL flashed on one occasion going uphill.
The same coughing symptoms - noticeably more frequent at idle, and heaps of white smoke coming out when idling at lower engine temps (especially right after the auto-switch from petrol to LPG). Sometimes it is like a smokeshow behind the car!
Switched back to running down an almost full tank of RON98 (the only grade of petrol I use) - no more CEL. But the CEL and jerking and vibration and sounding like an ancient dying vehicle (particularly when standing behind the vehicle and listening to the exhaust) comes back soon after I switch back to LPG...so onto my second full tank of RON98 now...
Got a sneaking suspicion that after the dealer replaced one of the exhaust headers (containing I assume one of the melted(?) cats), the Seven Hills LPG shop I then took it to tune it too rich but not rich enough to trigger the CEL - I noticed some slight delay then sudden "catch up" in engine revs when asked to accelerate gently at low speed for the first minute or so after the auto-switch from petrol to LPG after a cold start on a winter's night. But it went away and did not come back, so I did not think too much of it - until now. So I am not surprised if their potential dodgy tuning (possibly not easy with 1 new cat on 1 bank and 1 old cat on the other - although the car was 100% fine with Terry immediately after the cat replacement and before the tuning - only about 4-6% rich from memory?) has melted the other cat - if not both.
Pity I don't know much about gas systems - my mechanic is good and honest but does not deal with the LPG side...I need someone who does not mess up with the gas system and thus my car just to get more ongoing business!
@Terry: seeing as you appear to have bought all the necessary gear, kindly appreciate if I can bring the car over for you to take a look again some time. If it is just tuning, happy to pay you to have it tuned properly. But if the waveform is similar to what we had last time - then I won't be surprised if the cat has melted again, and I might have to ask everyone who have done their exhausts where to get hi-flow metal-core cats fitted and then pay to have you tune the system.
LPG system should be 10 years old next year and due for the tank certification/replacement etc. Considering I don't do huge mileages every year, really contemplating just getting rid of the system - because the rest of the car seems to be fine (besides an occasionally slipping-feeling 4th gear - damper clutch? And some squeaking probably at the seat base as John has mentioned in another thread)... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | How is the petrol fuel economy?
are you in Victoria? |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | I was silly enough not to do a proper calculation as it was not a full tank, but it seemed reasonable to me - obviously the range on petrol is far greater, but a tank of RON98 hurts a lot more $-wise! Definitely noticed greater RON98 use when in the lower gears and up and down gradients even at less than 30km/h, as expected.
Have not reset the trip computer, but it is showing 12.6L/100km at the moment at an average speed of 35.3km/h. No freeway runs, just a mix of stop-start + short distance + 60km/h-80km/h cruising.
Even without gradient changes, noticed the engine revs fluctuate noticeably when cruising at 80km/h or higher on CC when running LPG, which resulted in mild changes in cruising speed and the CC compensating. Does not seem to do that on RON98 - although rev-up response (whenever there is a need to press on) seems to be a touch slower than before. Not sure if it is because of the melted cat(s), or just my placebo effect!
Love to take some days off right now and visit you and your awesome collection and work in Vic - my wife actually prefers Melbourne over Sydney, just needs to find a job there - and hopefully have the issue sorted for good! But I can only take part-days off until 12/9, so looks like I'll have to wait and see if Terry might be available by then. I might try him by other more direct means...
Also need to take it to a dealer for that light switch recall... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Back from o/s
Happy to plug it in and see what OBDii and LPG computers say
Would need you to run it for a day on LPG first so we can see if petrol ECU is compensating (via long term fuel trims) for incorrect LPG setting
I need dealer too for light switch - BTW John do you need me to scan the notice so you can publish it for non original owners who may not have had it sent to them??
Terry
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you very much Terry. Hope you had a great time overseas!
How many km do you think I should run it on LPG before we plug it in? Don't want to kill the cats any more than necessary if possible...
Will be interesting to find out what the culprit(s) is/are...
I will send you a PM and we can work out when it is more convenient for you.
If it is the cat(s) again...really wonder if I should just bite the bullet and change them all to hi-flow metal cats. Wonder what the parts and labour cost will be...? |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you very much Terry for your help - car seems to be running well again.
Still not sure what caused the tune to go out so badly, though, but that's probably a question for another time!
Posting a copy of the headlight switch recall notice now... |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | My pleasure |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Sadly it is not over...
Cold started the vehicle after dinner (not below the "C" mark cold, but right at the "C" mark). After it warmed up auto-switch to LPG, noticed a mild trembling at idle again - but nowhere near as bad as before. Drove OK to uni.
Cold-ish started the vehicle again just before 10p.m. to head home. While still running on petrol (I think...can't remember if it switched over to LPG by then) and drove slowly within uni grounds and had to come to a stop, the engine died while I was in Drive. Pushed it back to Park, brakes on then started the engine again and drove out of uni. Noticed the delayed and sudden revving up again when asked to accelerate from 20km/h or so at small throttle openings (e.g. after turning into an intersection). Barely made a few blocks out of uni (definitely on LPG by then) when the CEL came back on. Trembling at idle was getting worse then, but bearable. By the time I passed the Moore Park Road intersection and stopped at a red light, the trembling at idle became such violent jerking at random intervals yet again that I knew the problem is back, and I had to promptly switch back to petrol. Managed to drive home ok, but noticed after parking and with the engine running, that the exhaust note is not as even and consistent as it normally should - though nowhere near as bad as LPG. CEL is still on by the time I switched off the engine.
Already booked the car with Sydney City Mitsubishi this coming Friday morning for the headlight switch. Looks like I will have to call them this Monday so they can deal with this also...
Just a little bit baffled by what is/are causing this. My wallet is not liking me again...sigh.
One good thing out of this, though: on a downhill slope, whilst in Sports Mode and keeping it at around an indicated 62km/h in 4th gear by the appropriate brake pedal pressure and with no accelerator, I noticed that the engine revs no longer fluctuate between about 1100rpm to about 1400rpm - something it has always done since I've bought the vehicle. So here is hoping Terry's fix is still in the ECU somewhere!
Maybe it is time for me to hit the wreckers and try to find some headers...although there is no knowing how much longer those ones will last! |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | A quick update...
Took it for a short trip across an adjacent suburb today, now running exclusively on petrol.
It has now become apparent that at the same throttle openings as before, the engine revs is picking up far less up inclines, resulting in far less acceleration until the throttle is pushed much deeper. Seems to drink way more petrol in the process as well. On the other hand, on the same downhill slope, the car now rolls up to barely over 40km/h with no accelerator instead of 50km/h or more before. CEL is now staying on.
Oxygen sensors?
Edited by dazeet 6/9/2014 23:28
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | Maybe loose connection to oxy sensors exacerbated by stiff wiring etc when engine cold causing intermittent fault
Try unplug and re-plug all the plugs etc on front and rear primary sensors ?? |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Drove it from the other side of Sydney to uni and back yesterday. The CEL turned off after a while, and acceleration subsequently seemed to have improved.
So the cycle basically goes like this:
Switch it to LPG --> drivetrain behaviour appear to worsen with increase in coolant temp (from the auto-switchover point to normal operating temp) --> CEL turns on and behaviour is bad enough to have to switch back to petrol --> behaviour improves but still poorer than average acceleration especially at low revs --> CEL turns off (perhaps after a bit of harder acceleration) but symptoms still present especially when idling --> the cycle repeats if I switch it back to LPG...
Will try to unplug and re-plug whichever oxygen sensors that I can (but not really sure if this will help though, given the above cycle). They are the screw-on screw-off type aren't they?
Vehicle has done more than 157,000km - more than 100,000km since the LPG system was installed. Most of this would've probably involved cruising in Canberra - consistently high exhaust gas temperatures I think...
Edited by dazeet 9/9/2014 14:07
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | hey mate...it may not be an oxygen sensor.
you need to get the code read from the OBD port....
to screw the oxygen sensors off you REALLY should use an O2 removal socket...only about 10 bucks from sup[a cheap auto...has a cutout for the cable.
I personally stuffed a few before I learned my lesson....get the tool!
I have never heard of an o2 sensor showing the signs of acceleration that you describe...get the codes first, leave the O2 sensors alone till you do is my advice.
I reckon look at the mass airflow sensor...or a vacuum leak on a hose somewhere |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | With the people at Seven Hills now. They are trying to work it out. I have already told them about the MAF sensors and vacuum leak etc.
Have also called John from Sydney City Mitsubishi while I am waiting (because I was really wondering if aging O2 sensors would have melted one of the precats prematurely in the first place - the car by now has done over 158,000km). Terry: John mentioned how you took your car to Vic to have the perfect tune? Is it from John (our super admin)?
Really tempted to just drive the car over to Vic also. Just want to fix it once and for all rather than having (LPG-related) issues every few thousand km. Besides, my wife and I are overdue for a short break! |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 108
Location: NEWPORT QLD | I didn't take mine to Victoria
I bought the cable and got the software and then did about 15 iterations of adjustment to get the petrol ECU long term fuel trim as close to zero as possible when we went Brisbane and back last Xmas.
I did that because my initial long term fuel trim was about -15%
Remember the petrol ECU sees the O2 sensor readings and sends (petrol) injector timings which are recalculated by the LPG ECU to inject he correct amount of gas, so If the gas is set wrongly the long term fuel trim will try to correct it. My problem was then getting CEL for lean idle when the system overcompensated on trailing throttle.
That was the adjusted map I loaded into yours a couple of weeks ago, and it appeared to be running OK when we went for the 10k or so test run
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Thank you Terry for clarifying.
Sorry forgot to upate - on 16/9/2014 the Seven Hills people gave the system a tune, said "no charge" and told me to drive it again and see how it goes.
I asked how often should I run the car on petrol only. They say about 30-45 minutes each week.
Have been doing so for most Sundays since, and it seems so far so good again 
Wish I can pinpoint what exactly is/are causing the issue. But if it is doing OK, then I am happy! |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Update.
It was the aging spark plug seals. Engine oil was leaking out through them, thus affecting spark plug performance and hence triggering the misfire/lean error codes etc.
No more warning light since the seals were replaced. Bit more low rev torque as well |
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Frequent flyer Gold
Posts: 1092
Location: An island off southern Tasmania. | Glad you hve it sorted...LOL...took 3 years though. |
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Frequent flyer Bronze
Posts: 43
Location: NSW | Indeed - finally found a mechanic who bothered to take out all the surrounding plumbing in order to observe and address the actual issue properly!
Anyway, I thought I should tell everyone the good news, and save some of us time and money in case they experience similar symptoms in future |
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